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[QUOTE=tl507362] For those who don't know the english name of Keyaki, it is the Japanese Grey Bark Elm. Japanese use this tree for Bonsai. Very beautiful tree that can be very big. I didn't know it was used for guitars. Hmmm, learn something new everyday!
Tracy[/QUOTE]

I know of four species under the name Keyaki. In China and Japan it's a protected tree used for temple work. It is rare to find large timbers in the west. Most of the high quality stuff is veneered. Beautiful ringing tap tone. I'll have several sets at GAL.

That is one incredible Bonsai tree in the photo!!!!!

Larry Davis38796.7000115741

Nice looking wood Larry....

I like the Bonsai tree too! Makes me think it's some sort of photographic trickery!

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Nice looking wood Larry....

I like the Bonsai tree too! Makes me think it's some sort of photographic trickery![/QUOTE]

Thanks Don......I studied that Bonsai photo and though "photo shop". The tree itself looks so old....weathered and wisdom like. Very perfect and I think there must be some large skills in training a tree like this.

Don, Colin and Larry,
While living in Tokyo for 3 years, I saw many beautiful Bonsai. In Tokyo, there is the Takagi Bonsai Museum, where you will see a tree that is 4 ft tall, in a Bonsai pot that costs over$10,000 and a tree that costs over 1 Million. It is over 500 years old by the way! Although that tree that Colin shows looks small, it is probably 2-3 ft tall and about the branches are about 2 ft in diameter.

Larry, btw, how much is a set of Keyaki like the picture you showed? Ballpark is okay. Beautiful piece of wood!
Tracy

Thanks Shane. Yes, that answered my question. I was wondering about any differences.

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Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg

Scott,

I am seriously concidering attending GAL and getting a table. I have a few more things to figure out before I actually register. If I make it there will be lots of sets to paw through.

Hope to see you there.

Shane

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Canada

My favorite fleck is Bela Fleck...man can he play banjo

Got him the CD player in the truck! Cool bass lines too!

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Canada

[QUOTE=Shane Neifer] Scott,

I am seriously concidering attending GAL and getting a table. I have a few more things to figure out before I actually register. If I make it there will be lots of sets to paw through.

Hope to see you there.

Shane[/QUOTE]

Wow, you read my mind! I was seriously just getting ready to email you about GAL.

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Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg

[QUOTE=tl507362] Larry, btw, how much is a set of Keyaki like the picture you showed? Ballpark is okay. Beautiful piece of wood!
Tracy[/QUOTE]

Price is $90.00 and the set in the photo is available. The sides are cut from the same timber....side by side. I acquired several 15-18" wide 14' long quartersawn pieces several years ago. I'd be happy to make a phone appointment and tap some of these unique woods. Not high tech, but it gives some sense of perspective on woods not often seen in the stores. I can also email better quality photos.Larry Davis38796.8243287037

So it appears that you folks out in BC have a lot of "wayward" spruce or some whacky genetics, or is there sometning in the water?

The idea that everything is somewhat crossed with something else really flies in the face of genetics and is contrary to the very definition of "species". Who makes the identifications of hybrids vs pure trees? Obviously, once the wood is just a log, it is no longer possible to do so. So do you have knowledgeable taxonomists out examining cones, twigs, needles, etc. before you cut the tree. Or is it just a matter of assuming that all of the trees in "X" location are thus and so?

All of this sounds a bit odd to me. Natural hybrids between species should be quite rare. There are cases, in birds, for example, where geographically isolated "species" turn out to only be "races" of the same species and they interbreed when their ranges again overlap. But trees? And no way are Sitka and white spruce geographic races of the same species. So what is going on here?

Grant

Grant,

All good questions/observations. I am soon to start some research on this very topic for a an article for Guitarmaker Mag. I have a couple of papers but confess that I have yet to digest them in detail. You would think that a long history would result in the evolution of the species into one. Yet, it hasn't happened. Sitka is a coastal species, Engelmann and White spruce are interior species and where we live is basically the mixing pot. These trees have been around long before any Europeans arrived on these soils so they are not a product of our corridors that allow many evolutioary changes in animals. So they are definately geographically related issues. But it is clear that this confirmed, taxonomists have given this particular hybrid it's on 'species' name, still it is a known hybrid, it can be reproduced as a hybrid and is viable, reproductively, as a hybrid. The scientists that I did talk to about this did indicate that there are regions where all trees are hybrids, I live in one such region. I will post what I learn on this topic in a few months.

Thanks

Shane

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Canada

Thanks, Shane. I guess my curiosity mostly centers on the "how" and "why" did this happen. I have a pretty good background in biology and forestry and this strikes me as very unique. I can't help but wonder "why there" and "why not all over".

Look forward to hearing more as it develops.

Guess I live in the world of "pure" white spruce.

Grant

[QUOTE=Grant Goltz] Thanks, Shane. I guess my curiosity mostly centers on the "how" and "why" did this happen. I have a pretty good background in biology and forestry and this strikes me as very unique. I can't help but wonder "why there" and "why not all over".

Look forward to hearing more as it develops.

Guess I live in the world of "pure" white spruce.

Grant[/QUOTE]

Grant,
I started looking into this, too, when I started buying this wood. It occurs in the transitional zone between coastal Sitka and continental White Spruce (and Engelman). The transitional zones are uncommon because most are separated by mountain ranges. For a good read on B.C. spruce check out the B.C. Ministry of Forests report linked below, or just wait for Shane to summarize it.

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/pubs/docs/Frr/Frr220.htm

And this short paper

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/pubs/docs/Frm/frm232.pdfScott Thompson38797.0716550926

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Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg

Shane, Grant, and Scott,

Thanks for the input, this is a very interesting discussion that does warrant the time and effort required for clarification.

I have a keen, all be it very amateur interest in cycads, and more specifically the genus encephalartos.

For us cycophiles, one realisation that has come from scientific advancement in the field of genealogy is that a good number of plants previously described by some of the greatest taxonomist as late as the 1970's have been found to be no more than a "phenotype?" or geographically affected strain of a previously described species.

On the other hand, other plants that have display identical form IE: same caudex, same pinnate, same rachis, same number of spines on the petiole etc, etc, with just a slight variation in colour of the female cone, and have been assumed to be a variation of a described form, have now been shown to be a totally separate species.

So it has all been very confusing and very profitable for the plant label makers For you guys who are into bonsai, the Japanese can do amazing things with caycas revoluta. Some of these are multi-headed miniature's and family heirlooms that are passed and maintained from one generation to the next, hundreds of years old.

Oh, and Grant, I would really like to try out some of your white spruce (picea glauca?) one day, and Shane, some of your picea lutzii as well...so much wood....so little time

Cheers all

Kim

Kim,
If you are ever over at the "other" forum, Check out the comments that Steve Stevens had on it in his "non traditional archtop" topic. I sent him a "second" white spruce archtop set (the only one I had at the time) about a year ago. He just strung it up a few days ago.

White spruce has the largest range of any spruce in North America, so I would expect that it may well have several geographic "races". Here in Minnesota, it is the only native upland spruce (black spruce, a smaller tree, grows in swamps) so not a lot of opportunity for things getting mixed up.

Grant

Let me guess: you sanded the top with some relatively fine sandpaper and a random orbit sander, correct?

Guys, you can get this type of figure in just about any softwood, even red spruce or cedar(cedar can show this figure in a very pronounced fashion!) using that technique... The more meds, the more pronounced, but it'll often show well even if no meds were present.Mario38797.4356944444

Oh, and no, a "speedbloc"-type sander isn't a random orbit sander. It needs to be a high speed circular motion sander.

try it!

Actually a random orbital sander does not help the figure become clearer....a very fine sandpaper by hand seems to work though. If this technique works in all softwoods, great, I'll try it again because I like the look. I'm surprised that very few have experienced this figure though if it was so easy to accomplish, interesting.

Greg

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Gwaltney Guitars

A random orbit(not the litle square sanders, a 5 or 6" disc one) with 400-500 grit really brings it out.

Many of us have seen it, but most of us avoid it. I'll sand that fine to check the surface, then come back by hand for a coarser grit and a block and follow the grain, to eliminate this figuring most of the time.

Why would I do that?

a) it is distracting after a while; It's cool at first, then starts to look "busy" to my eyes. Others will love it, though...

b(and this is the biggie)) if you 'cut through' in the finish stages, you now need to strip the entire top, and re-do it, because you'll never get the figure to match in a touch-up.

Anyone ever tried building a guitar out of Gingko Biloba ? Sorry, i had to show off a bit!

[QUOTE=Mario] I'll sand that fine to check the surface,
[/QUOTE]

Check the surface for what, Mario? Is this prior to finishing?

Check for dips, bumps, dents, that kind of stuff. Yes, before finishing....

[QUOTE=GregG] Actually a random orbital sander does not help the figure become clearer....a very fine sandpaper by hand seems to work though. If this technique works in all softwoods, great, I'll try it again because I like the look. I'm surprised that very few have experienced this figure though if it was so easy to accomplish, interesting.

Greg[/QUOTE]

I experience it all the time, but the funny thing is I try to get rid of it. I don't much care for that look. I prefer the nice straight rows with the cross silking...

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com